Bachelor's Night Out!

[mcgillianaire]

I’ve just got back from Arnav’s where the Gang of Five watched No Good Deed starring Samuel Jackson, Milla Jovovich & Stellan Skarsgård (Ronin, Good Will Hunting). It was a rather interesting movie at first but fortunately/unfortunately the only good thing about it till the end was the aesthetic presence of Ms. Jovovich. A couple of scenes in particular will remain etched in my memory for some time to come. For the others, a movie to avoid @ all costs. It’s not as bad as Scary Movie III though. What movies have you watched recently? Any worth an extra recommendation? I could do with a good, thinking movie.

Later this morning, seeing as to how it is nearly 3:00am right now, I will be trying to sort out what courses I will be taking this semester. I know it’s been a week into the semester but after all that has happened, this is the price to pay for terrible behavior. Anyways, once that is sorted out there is the issue with the Visa. Ahh, let’s hope that all gets sorted out easily. Red tape is lethal here in McGill and even the Management advisor has warned me about it. He is a bloody part of it! Oh well, at least I got back in.

Elsewhere, I am trying to figure out how to sort out my entire feeding habits. Ever since getting back from Oman I’ve not been able to fill myself with three, proper meals a day. It’s been a mix of random things @ the oddest of hours and I’m starting to feel the pinch of it. Any ideas on how to stay cheap and get fat?

Alrighty. I’m off to bed…Read on and stay tuned!

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Discussion for the Day…
Is my faith in a near-future (15-25 years), developed India, severely misplaced? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this topic that has, for a long time been intriguing me. Despite everything India, as a modern-nation, has achieved since Independence, a lot has been left to be desired and a lot, lot more is needed to reach any of the minimum social/economic heights of the Western nations… How far behind is India and will it ever reach the position the USA is in today, and if yes, when do you foresee such an awesome sight (*smile*), and if not, why not?
Till next time…
Have a good one!

Comments

Reply no 1 - Romania on the way to the EU, or is it???

[(Anonymous)]

My dear Hari and all other people that hate me on this journal page,

Even though I said that I am going to be the bad a@@ on this chat, sometimes u feel the need to be a nice person and take things seriously.
1. I got a job and today I spent my first hour in the office. I have my own computer and I am the only one using it. Today consisted mainly with data entry and mail collection. The ugly things are to come though.
2. I agree with Hari on the movie we saw last nite. I sucked. But, I think that sometimes u need a movie just to sit with ure friends and make fun of things, life, Guy and Karun and his sheep. This is the best thing in life: not watching the movie and then having endless debates wether it has a hidden meaning or what the creators wanted us to understand by watching it... It is the mere presence of ure friends, people that u enjoy staying with and hanging out with. For me a good movie does not involve a good plot, a super mistery, but a reason to feel well with ure friends. If I am alone in my apartment and I am watching a movie, of course, I demand plot, mistery, action and hot females (preferably as naked as possible) - BTW Hari, I got a nice website for u to check out! Contact me later.
3. I am one semester away from choosing my major. Even though I have chosen Finance, I still think that this choice of what u are going to do in life is approaching fast and we are still rooted in out teenage "problems". This makes me feel bad and somehow incompetent in front of life...

Back to the discussion theme for the day... I am not the person to judge India or say things about it. I just don't have the knowledge and I risk ending up saying some dumb things I might regret later. My idea is that countries like India or Romania have many many many years left till reaching the Western standard imposed by USA and Western Europe. Just to give u some numbers: Romania has at least 80 years left till reaching the actual level of development of the EU countries. (This is an official number released by the EU when Romania was in talks for entering the Union). As far as I know, India has a literacy rate of 65% and Romania has 98%. Romania's GDP/capita is a little higher than India's and one more thing: Romania is considered a second world country, while India is a 3rd world country. So, if u take the numbers it means that India has more than 80 years till reaching the standard imposed by the EU (we assume that the standard in the EU is quite the same as in the US). So my dear Hari and Indian friends, in 15-25 years, Romania or India have no chance of even getting close to this ultimate goal. We would most probably be dead when this would happen. But, us, the people that study abroad, must make sure that our countries will get support from our knowledge and, let's hope so, future fortune. I am not saying that we should go back and live there, what I'm saying is that we need to invest in our countries and try to help this number (80 years) get reduced by a dozen or two... If all Romanians or Indians were able to do that, both our countries would be much closer than they are now. But, amongst the 8 million Romanians that live abroad, it seems that only a small percentage have interest in helping their mother country that can really need their support.

This being said, I am going to end this conversation and I am willing to hear what other people think of these matters. I accept criticism so please be honest and let's have a pleasant discussion on this makeshift forum.

Cris, the Romanian guy

Re: Reply no 1 - Romania on the way to the EU, or is it???

[(Anonymous)]

Cris, the statistics you cited were of literacy and GDP/capita. Neither of these tells you how much improvement there's been over the last few decades, which would be a much better indicator of how likely Hari's dream to come true is. So saying that India has over 80 years to go is completely unjustified. (I don't mean to sound harsh... I just don't like people quoting bad statistics to bolster arguments.)

Whilst I'm too lazy to find graphs, I'm sure Hari will have seen rapidly upward moving lines on various indicators for India.

Romania is old Eastern Bloc, and the old Communist states have struggled a little to modernise (it's all relative). They haven't had the rapid economic expansion of India and China. I would guess, basing my argument on my general feel for the world economy and the price of gold, that they'll improve slowly. India and China, though, will be the first real economic counterweight to the US. Our Governor-General, Major-General Michael Jeffrey, has said that Australia needs to look to India. That way the future lies...

Re: Reply no 1 - Romania on the way to the EU, or is it???

[(Anonymous)]

I am glad I found someone to disagree (even though partly) with me. My first concern would be who is the person (since the author didn;t sign the reply).

Ok, yes, as I've mentioned in the beginning of the reply, I was sure I will say something that might affect people and might not even be true. But sometimes this is the heart of the debate.

Romania is old Eastern Bloc, but, as I may neglect India's economic and political development, you may neglect Romania's economic development. In 1980's, my parents told me that Romania had a huge load of work to do in order to get rid of the communist regime. But, in 1989, the revolution turned that around. Now, in the 00's, it is said that Romania needs 80 years to reach EU standards. But what if it happens like in 1989 and we reach there faster than expected? Things can happen. I mean, we will not have a revolution, kill our president in the street and eventually become super world power...

China, yes, I agree, they are a power, economically mostly. Politically, Americans are still scared of the idea of cooperating with a communist regime. It is like cold war Russia and the US joining forces. That is unimaginable. A good friend of mine, Eastern Asian of origin, told me that China's economic power comes from huge development in the Hong Kong, left over by Britain. What is India's Hong Kong then? I mean no disrespect to India's development over the past years, since I am somehow informed by my good friend Hari, but I feel that I need more arguments in India's favour.

On the other hand, Romania's position is weird. Bush said when visiting Romania that "when things take off in Eastern Europe, they really take off." The only problem now is... when are we going ot take off? I am looking forward to that moment!

Take care,

Cris

Re: Reply no 1 - Romania on the way to the EU, or is it???

[(Anonymous)]

My first concern would be who is the person (since the author didn;t sign the reply).
Heh. You can call me Pappu.

As Hari said, I disagree about the Hong Kong thing. But Kerala is the answer anyway. :)

And you're right, making 80 year projections are silly. Far too much can happen in eight decades to say anything definitively about it.

Re: Reply no 1 - Romania on the way to the EU, or is it???

[dubaiwalla.livejournal.com]

In 1980's, my parents told me that Romania had a huge load of work to do in order to get rid of the communist regime. But, in 1989, the revolution turned that around. Now, in the 00's, it is said that Romania needs 80 years to reach EU standards. But what if it happens like in 1989 and we reach there faster than expected?

To kill Nicolae Ceausescu would've required a single bullet. To bring Romania (or India, or any other country) upto Western standards of living is not quite as simple. It takes under a second to pull a trigger; to build roads, train doctors, and form democratic institutions takes decades.

A friend of mine told me he didn't think it was possible for the world to achieve Western standards of living at all; there just aren't enough resources. While this is not a zero sum game (i.e. improvements to the standard of life in the third world do not necessarily have to lead to declines for the same in the West), I think he does have a point. We're never all going to be driving SUVs. Which is part of why I'd like open borders- it would greatly speed up the process of levelling the playing field.

Keep it Coming Mes Amis!

[mcgillianaire.livejournal.com]

Check out this article. Relevant to current discussion? Bush welcomes tech partner India (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3391211.stm). Got it off BBC World.

Where is everybody else? Talk, write, do whatever. Let us hear the hidden side...

First world, second world, third world

[mcgillianaire.livejournal.com]

The terms first world, second world, and third world are used to divide the nations of Earth into three broad categories. Originally, the term "first world" referred to capitalist societies, the term "second world" to centrally planned ones, whereas "third world" stood for tribal systems. During the Cold War, the phrase "first world" referred to nations within the United States' sphere of influence, the phrase "second world" to nations within the Soviet Union's sphere of influence, and the phrase "third world" to nations within neither sphere. After the Cold War, "first world" began to refer to countries with "Western" societies and large economies and "third world" to developing countries in regions such as Africa (because originally neither Cold War superpower bothered with such countries); with the fall of Leninist Communism the term "second world" largely fell out of use. (Original Link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_world)

Re: First world, second world, third world

[mcgillianaire.livejournal.com]

Cris, I hope you read this because there is nothing to suggest that "second world" or "third world" was an illustration of one being superior or inferior to the other. China is also considered a third world nation but we all know how powerful an economy it has. Also, I wouldn't say that Hong Kong is the reason China is such an economic heavyweight. (It is part of the reason, yes.)

Chinese economic reforms began in 1979, nearly two decades before Hong Kong became an official part of the mainland again. India on the other hand, only started a program of liberalization in 1991 and so it would seem obvious that it will take it slightly longer to match the economic achievements of China. There is also the unfortunate legacy of India's corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy left behind by the Brits and the masses of poverty-ridden illiterates that comprise 3.3% of the world's population approximately. Anyways, I'm just throwing around numbers like they hardly mean much, but hopefully this forum can help us understand other points of view (ptsov). I for one, have certainly learnt much about other's impressions of India's progress from the inputs by the Russian, my bad, I mean Romanian, and the Aussay!

Seriously, where is everybody else? Anyways. I gotta jet to sleep. It's pretty late out here. :-)

Re: First world, second world, third world

[dubaiwalla.livejournal.com]

Seriously, where is everybody else?
Miss me?

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Also, I wouldn't say that Hong Kong is the reason China is such an economic heavyweight. (It is part of the reason, yes.)
Chinese economic reforms began in 1979, nearly two decades before Hong Kong became an official part of the mainland again.

Both of you are missing what I imagine would probably be the largest reason why China is a heavyweight: China has 1.3 billion people (give or take a hundred million)- 1.3 billion people who are being weaned away from Mao and shown the joys of consumerism. That translates into a whole lot of Coca-Cola being sold.

This is not to underestimate the importance of the reforms. Deng Xiaopeng once said, "To be rich is to be glorious." In India, it is still fashionable to attack the rich (verbally, at any rate). The Communist Party of India (Marxist) is still, to the best of my knowledge, the third largest in the country. It would roll back all the post-'91 reforms, given a chance (thankfully, it has very little chance today of leading a national government).

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There is also the unfortunate legacy of India's corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy left behind by the Brits
The British certainly did leave behind a stifling bureaucratic tradition. However, I've yet to see any reports saying that India's pre-Independence civil service was corrupt. As far as I know, that particular achievement was India's alone.

Unfortunately, corruption is a very hard thing to root out, once it is endemic in the system. There is no country entirely free of corruption. Indeed, it is rife in the first world. However, the difference between corruption there and in India (and other developing countries) is that first world corruption is concentrated at the top. Often, it takes place in full public view ("lobbying" sounds so much better than "bribery," doesn't it?) whereas in India, it is rampant at every level from clerk to Prime Minister (although the current PM is relatively clean). This means that every illiterate villager in the country is potentially held hostage to the whims and fancies of people who want more money to supplement the meager amounts they get from their government jobs. The so-called license-quota raj, exacerbated by India's long and unsuccessful socialist phase, only made things worse, as government approval was made necessary for even the smallest things, and the only way to become big was to have politicians in your pocket.

Re: First world, second world, third world

[(Anonymous)]

Dubaiwalla, I really enjoy ure comments and I think they are really well placed and well thought. I agree with almost everything u say and I say: keep it coming. I enjoy a good lecture. While I am a little more prone to dismissing India and promoting Romania (fo sho, I am Romanian! What the hell!). But my unsigned Aussie friend (sorry, lost ure name, I apologize for that, I am too lazy to go back and see where it is written!) is the other way around: Romania less and India more. I like Dubaiwalla's comments because they refer to both countries as being far back and unable to reach high standards in a short amount of time. I think this is the best approach to the problem.

What is funny with Romania is that we have the people to do it but we severely lack the infrastructure. We have an amazing medical school and Romanian doctors are among the most preferred in Europe. But hospitals are all shit holes. But the best example might be sports: we have had amazing results in sports for a country our size: I would start with our main sport, gymnastics, where, for the past 15-20 years, Romania always came back with a huge load of gold medals. I continue with football (soccer for my American friends), where Hagi was one of the best players ever in the game and Romania nearly missed the best 4 in WC2004 in the US after a dramatic penalty shootout. Between the 50's and 70's the European Champions Cup in volleyball and handball were held between 2 Romanian teams. But, think of this: Romania would never be able to host any olympic games or any world cup football championship because it lacks the facilities. Stadiums and arenas suck and so does the entire Romanian sporting infrastructure. On the other hand, India will most probably host the 2014 olympic games, but in the past few years, they've only won one medal overall. That is soooo bad, but at least they have the facilities to do it.
The same thing happens in Romania politics. We have the people and we have the will to do it, but when the political infrastructure is mostly what it is left from the communist regime, we have a long way ahead.

And one more thing: u brag that India is corrupt? Go to www.nationmaster.com and check the corruption levels in Rom and India. Romania is slighty better than India (better in the negative way, I mean, Romania is more corrupt). India needed 1 billion people to be so corrupt. We needed communism and 23 million people to do it. Take this just as a funny fact.

Take care,

Cris

Ahem

[(Anonymous)]

You mentioned how good at sport Romania is for a country with so few people. I refer you to Australia. :)

And I know we have the infrastructure, so it's nto a fair comparison, but it is my duty to point out how absolutely BRILLIANT we are at sport, in spite of a population lower than Romania's.

Re: Ahem

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry my friend, if Romania had Australia's sports infrastructure we would be one of the best teams in the world in mostly anything (I rule out sports like cricket, which is not known in Romania and our main problem comes with winter sports. But we could improve even there if we had what it takes. I might say that we would not be better in rugby than Australia)

Romania holds the world record for most World Cups in handball (4), men and women as well. Another fact: England has not beat Romania in 30 years (no jokes, official number) in football, their national sport. I believe that a better structure would make Romania better in many sports including tennis, rugby, basketball, volleyball etc. Now gymnastics and football is all we have left, because of a huge lack of funds for facilities. Diana Mocanu, the Romanian swimming champion (I think she even broke a world record in Sydney 2000, I am not completely sure, but she came home with 2 or 3 gold medals) trains in an uncleaned pool of dirty water in a random city in Romania. The next year, at the World Championships she was crap... Why? No facilities to train in.

Give us your infrastructure and I guarantee better results in so many sports.

And BTW, Hari, please support my statement here that Romania has good sports, u know it, I've been bugging u with these things for almost 2 years!

Thanks and take care everyone,

Cris

Re: First world, second world, third world

[dubaiwalla.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your kind, if undeserved, words.

The most well-known rankings for corruption are those released by Transparency International. And according to their 2003 International Corruption Perception Index, India and Romania are two of the three countries that rank joint-83rd out of 133. Not much to be proud of, in either case.

India needed 1 billion people to be so corrupt. We needed communism and 23 million people to do it.
I'm not sure how much size has to do with corruption. The US, the world's third largest country by population (and area too, for that matter) ranks 18th on that list. Haiti sits at position 131. You will, however, doubtless have noticed from that list that less corrupt countries are more prosperous. Although there is probably more than a little bit of the chicken and the egg involved in this.

but in the past few years, [India]'ve only won one medal overall.
False. Karnam Malleswari got a bronze in weightlifting in Sydney AND Leander Paes got a bronze in tennis in Atlanta. Indeed, he came close to beating Andre Agassi in the semis there. Not that two bronzes is a real improvement over one, but I just had to be a pedant and mention it.

[(Anonymous)]

jeez..romania and india..that is sad. why in the world is india being compared to romania? i mean romanias a tiny little never will be never has been kind of nation stuck in the middle of europe. why would anyone even try to compare the two ? i mean at best romania ll b like a scandinavian country..a buncha rich folk trying to figure out how they can possibly be more liberal...and gay... they ll never matter more than... hmm..estonia..or ... guinea bissau ... or st kitts..or u kno one of those countries that has about as much clout in the world as a fly. they ll win a couple more medals in handball ...probably because of lack of competition...i mean what the hell is handball...tennis for commies??? ... and then that swimmin chick..who trains in dirty pools... wierd...cant get anyone to clean it???i mean 23 million ppl and not one pool cleaner... romania is messed...and cris here thinks its gonna become a respected country...it cant.. its a tiny little country in the middle of nowhere that is famous for nothing...well close to nothing in any case... india on the other hand... where should i begin. heres a piece of advice for u cris... immigrate to whatever country takes ya...better comin from a place thats heard of than one that would probably b a district, not even a province in most countries. jeez the nerve.. india and romania being compared...go compare yourself to ivory coast or somethin

Thanks Karun

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks again Karun for the extensive description of Romania. It really touched my feelings.

I guess people reading ure postings are happy now...

Take care and have a chilling day,

Cris.

[(Anonymous)]

bastard told ya eh...yeah it was a joke to c if u d take the bait...muhahaha

funny

[(Anonymous)]

Very funny Karun. I laughed my ass off... nooooot!

[(Anonymous)]

Karun rocks man!